Larry Jewell

You're with Dixie's 890, Katie Xu. And as promised, we have the governor of the state of Utah, Norm Bangiter, with us. Welcome, Governor. Thank you. It's nice to be here. Now you are. You have ties to this area anyway? Well, we have had property in this area for some 20 years and we love it down here. We think it's a great spot. Now, am I right or wrong? Didn't you have a daughter that attended Dixie for a while? I had a daughter who attended Dixie for two years and graduated. She now lives back down here. Her husband works for one of the banks and she is a controller for one of the restaurants here in town. And they're building a new house out in Hurricane. And then I had a son attend here a year about three years ago. So there are plenty of ties to St. Joseph. That's right. Let's talk a little bit. Obviously, we're going to get into the controversy that surrounds governor's office. You have plenty. There's no controversy, is there? I thought St. George was where everything was peace and quiet. Let's talk a little bit about this part of the state from the governor's office in Salt Lake City. What do you see taking place with southwest Utah? Well, southwest Utah really has been one of the bright spots in the economy over the past several years. We think it's an excellent place for growth. As you know, we've helped invest some money down here in water development. We've put a lot of money into the college and we think St. George is one of the premium places in the state of Utah. But by the same token, all of Utah we view as being a premium place to live. But I think St. George is going to continue to grow. Your college is going to continue to grow. If you saw the figures, enrollments are up substantially in virtually every education, higher education institution. Quail Creek Dam has been rebuilt now and hopefully will hold the water. As you know, we've already been approached by your water conservancy people to start looking for another site to accommodate the growth that they expect to come. I think with current water development, you can probably handle 75 or 80,000 people. You're pushing 50,000 now. I think your census is 46 to 48,000. And so they think within another 10 years or so they're going to need another site if the population can grow up to maybe 120,000 in this county. So we see it continuing to be a pretty strong growth area. And as you know, you've received some good ratings about One of the very best places in the world to retire. It's been delightful, that sense. Years ago, years ago, the feeling was that the state of Southern Utah. State of Utah ends at the Utah county line. That seems to be disappearing now, doesn't it? Well, I, you know, I wish I could say that, but wherever I go as governor, you know, people give that line. The people in Salt Lake don't think. I hope that probably is less here with me because I have had a strong interest down here and have been very supportive during my 10 years in the legislature and my six years now as governor. I think we've given strong support to the growth of rural Utah and southern Utah and southwestern Utah obviously has been the area outside of the Wasatch front that has had the most substantive growth over the past 20 years. And I would guess because of your climate and your proximity to other metropolitan areas on the west coast that that will continue to be the case, although we've tried to give emphasis to the entire state in our economic development effort. Let's talk about some issues that are hot right now. First of all, right now there is, there are some information meetings that are taking place today involving the recently passed compensation for fallout victims bill. What sort of effect does that have on the state of Utah from your position as governor? Well, first of all, I think it's a proper procedure to have occur. I'm not completely current on exactly what the amount is anticipated to be to each recipient who's judged to have a claim. But I think our congressional delegation, Senator Hatch, has done a great job in leading that fight to get compensation for those victims. And I understand the meetings now are to kind of work out some of the details and the kinks. So I don't know a lot more about it than that, except it's a process that we've supported and think that it's been a worthwhile process and long overdue. I know Senator Hatch, Congressman Owens, both expressed the feelings that one of the key things was that the government admitted some fault in this. Was that a key feeling in your seat? Well, I, you know, the federal government and governments traditionally have government immunity, but I've never believed that that gave them the right to withhold information or to mislead or lie to people. And it appears that that's what's been done in this case is that they were just plain not told of known dangers to the health and safety of the people in this area of the state. And I don't think we should ever tolerate that type of activity. You know, governments obviously have to have secrets. Everybody can't know whether you plan to invade Saddam Hussein or whether you don't. An Air Force general got into some trouble over that. But I think when it comes to the life and safety and health of our people, you've got to tell them what the risks are. And they clearly didn't do that in this case. And that's too bad. That's a shame. One of the things. Let's shift risk, change that to another. Another issue, hot issue right now is the dropping of the sales tax on food. It's going to be on the ballot. Part of the discussion involved the risks to the state. What are those risks as you see it? Well, the thing that I think is the greatest risk is that people are not going to vote on accurate information. And I'd like to just set the record straight if I could. We're not awash in money in the state of Utah. If I take what I think will be the anticipated growth in revenues for the budget we're going to write in January, we will be from 100 million to 300 million short of being able to do what needs to be done to keep us even. And to do that, we'll have to use all, virtually all of the reserves that we now have. And there are a lot of figures out there, and I won't try to explain all those figures, but we anticipate that growth will be 100 million in revenues next year over what's appropriated. The very most conservative figure we have says we will need nearly 200 million to keep even. We have some surplus today of approximately 100 million in the bank. We think we'll get a little more in this fiscal year. But under the best case scenario, we will not have enough money in ongoing revenue to do the things that need to be done in this state to keep us even with our investment in education. Just let me give you some figures. Inflation, conservatively, it was going to cost us 85 million. Really probably closer to 120. Education funding, new students in public and higher education, 25 million. Federal mandates, Medicare and Medicaid, that we're going to have to spend 25 million. The federal budget reconciliation. Our original figure on the original package was that it would cost us 15 to 20 million, probably be that high, but just use 10 million. 15 million that we promised that we would continue to put into technology and education. 5 million to help remove asbestos. The asbestos danger in school. And Now I'm down 65 million dollars over the hundred million growth that we anticipate and have to start eating into reserves to pay that, which means the next year, if you continue at that level, you're going to have to have a tax increase to keep at that level. And we're committed to not increasing tax taxes. So my position has been constant. I'm not going to vote to remove the sale tax on food. I'm not going to tell anyone else how to vote. Just make sure you understand that if you take that tax off, you're going to have a reduction in services. And it's very clear we do not have the money to make up 90 million as they say we do. We do not have the money to pick up what they say the state should pick up, which will be lost to local taxing districts, local governments. And local governments only have one place to go when they lose that revenue, and that's to the property tax. And so, you know, we can talk about the figures in generalities, but I would challenge anyone to come in and talk to me with figures to show me how they're going to make this budget work without dramatic cuts and without being very frugal, without the removal of the property tax, let alone with it if it's with it. There's absolutely a reverse growth in our education program and other programs. And that's the way the money adds up. And that's a fact. And no one has given me any concrete information. You know, I hear these three four hundred million dollar figures tossed around like they were something wonderful. The facts are we just don't have that kind of money. One of the questions that then arises with this, there is a significant support for the removal of the sales tax on food. Is this saying to the state of Utah, to the state legislature, hey, we need to have tax reform. Do you anticipate that coming out even if the, if the initiative fails? Well, tax reform, you know, I think that's one thing you have to remember is we're doing on a constant basis and there's a constant discussion about that. I've very clearly said I'm not opposed to talking about some kind of adjustment in food tax, but don't do it unilaterally. Do it within the process where if you really wanted, want to take it off and want to replace it, do it responsibly. But here you have a real interesting situation. You have the independents who got it on the ballot who say take it off, we can live without the money. You have the Democrats who have joined say take it off, but replace it with an income tax raise. So my view is that it was put on the ballot as a tax reduction measure, and if it passes, that's what it ought to be, because that's what I think the average person is going to be voting on. They want their taxes reduced. And I say we have to just make decisions because I can balance the budget at any level. I have to do it constitutionally. We think we're pretty good at that. We were judged not long ago as the second best managed state financially in the nation we have. We're one of six states with a triple A bond rating, best bond rating that a state can have. So we're frugal with our finances, and that's recognized nationally. And so I can balance the budget. If you saw a national poll recently, it indicated that 70% of the people didn't want any services reduced with the budget reconciliation and only 30% were willing to pay more taxes. Now, you can't have it both ways. We either have to. We have to in Utah. Fortunately, we're not like the federal government. We can't spend it if we don't have it. And so if you want me to spend the money, you have to pay taxes somewhere. And in my view, it isn't a bad idea to take the sales tax off food if you know how you're going to live without it. I just think it's the wrong way to do it, the wrong approach. It ought to be in a very real debate about what the priorities are and what the taxes ought to be. And I think those who are supporting the removal are not on the same wavelength. I think they're putting mixed messages. And I think the message that ought to be clear is that the people who gathered the signatures wanted it as a tax cut. And I think that's what it ought to be viewed as. Do you anticipate, once again, the state legislature, Will that be the prime topic in the state legislature this coming. This coming session? Will it be how do we get the funding? How do we handle the taxes? Do we rework the entire system to get the same funding from taxes, only shift the responsibility around in the shore? But as what the Democrats want to do is they don't like. They don't. They don't like Republican tax policy, and Republicans don't like Democratic tax policy. Generally speaking, we agree on many areas. And so the real. The real question is, if you vote for Republicans, you get one view of taxes. If you vote for Democrats, you get another view of taxes. And the Democrats can't win the election for the legislature and why they Joined the food tax, I don't know. Because when that initiative was started, if you recall, there was a move for the Democrats to join it then and it was rejected. My view is that when it got on the ballot and the first poll showed that 65% of the people favored it, they thought that was pretty good idea. The polls have reversed themselves since then, and where it's going to go, we don't know. But that's all I say, is look at it objectively. And if you think I've got too much money to balance my budget, then take it away from me and I'll balance it at a lower figure. But with less services. But with less services. And there's no, you know, they can say, you don't have to do that, but there will be less services. And I'd like to have some of those people who, who say that you can cut it come in and literally show me on the chart, program by program, where they want those cuts. We talked about education. Higher education has been growing in the state of Utah. There has been the threatened teacher actions. Obviously there is going to be something that's going to be coming to the teachers now. Is there funding for that? Is there sufficient funding? Well, we think there's sufficient funding to keep us viable, but there isn't sufficient funding to give unlimited money to education. And that's the other point I'd like to make. They like to say we're wasteful. And I'd be the first to say we haven't ferreted out all the waste in government, but we're working on it. But we're less wasteful, if you want to put it that way. We're the most efficient government, we're the most efficient education system in America. We spend less on our kids for education than anybody in the country. Now you tell me we're spending too much money on education. If we're spending less than anybody else, we have less government employees, state and local employees than anybody else in the country. So who are we? Who are you going to compare us with? The reality is we have the best credit rating. We're judged to be the best managed financially. We spend less money for every program, for every student. I think that's a pretty darn good record in comparison with our competition. If that was a competition among businessmen, would be the low price leader. Now, looking ahead, some of the issues that you see on the horizon that the state's going to have to face. There is a recession apparently that has hit the eastern part of the United States. Much of the South. Let me cut in there. And that's a very real reason to not to be too optimistic about what revenues are going to do because clearly they're in a recession. Most of our economists, the private sector, believe we may avoid it if it doesn't last too long, but they even believe we're going to slow down. And the figures we're using for revenues are still based on a high performance of the economy. So if the slowdown actually comes, our situation could be very difficult in a very real way without any tax cut. Recession has to be something the finances. What about water? Is that going to be an issue that the state's going to have to continue to face? Absolutely. We're the second driest state in the nation. And here in Washington county, that's something you have to look to. With the rebuilding of the Quail Creek Dam, I think that gives you water supply to handle upwards of 80,000 residents in this county. You're now running about 46 to 48,000. So you've got maybe a 10 year supply. Your people were in my office the last month or two talking about another dam on the Virgin River. We think there's enough water in the Virgin if we can find an appropriate place to store it where this population could go up to 120,000 over the next 20, 30 years, that can be done and will support that effort. As a state, the difficulty is going to be to find an environmentally sound site that we can balance the environmental needs against the, the actual needs for water to allow this part of the state to continue to grow. You're going to be one of the probably first classic examples of a real, real discussion about wilderness versus development. You know, we have a lot of those in theory, but in most cases where people want to put wilderness and somebody says something's going to be developable, they're talking in the future. This water and wilderness in your county is something where there's a good storage site, apparently where it's also a very good wilderness area. And so this is going to come out of the theoretical debate and going to have to become a real debate on which takes precedent. Do we potentially develop the water so we can accommodate a growing population or do we say no under any circumstance? We've got to keep that area pristine. Going to be very interesting to participate in that dialogue over the next 10 years. Let's talk about. Let's move out of some of the issues and into the experience of. Governor, you're into your second term, well into your second term now what did you find in the governor's chair that you did not expect to find when you ran for governor? Governor? Well, I don't know that you can say that you expected to find anything that you haven't found. I had 10 years in the legislature. Being governor is. There's no relationship to being governor and being in the legislature. But I guess if there's an adjustment to make, it's the fact that you cannot avoid, even if you wanted to, any issue. A governor has to speak out on every issue. A governor cannot get away from his job. There's really no way to, to put it on hold because you're the only guy. And even if you're out of town, I'm in St. George. I've already talked to my office twice today, and I'll probably talk to him two or three more times in between the other things that I'm doing. And so you find you just cannot get away from it. It's an all encompassing thing. The other thing that I don't think you really anticipated is what a great job it really is. You think in terms that it's hard work and it's pressure packed, but it's a fun job, it's an exciting job. I think everyone would admit it's where the action is. If there's a major issue coming down the pike, the governor's going to be in the middle of it. And sometimes our natural instincts would say, do I really have to have an opinion on this issue? And the facts are I really do. And so the thing that I find so exciting about it is the educational opportunities, the opportunities to meet with people from every walk of life and get the different perspectives on every major issue. But to answer your question specifically, the total commitment and the total domination of the job over one's life was something that, although I've been busy all my life, I've never had that kind of a situation where it was with you, wherever it's with you, wherever you are, and you have to deal with it. And when you're in the state, obviously everywhere you go, you're recognized for better or for worse. People want to talk to you about the various issues and so there's no anonymity. But that's fun too, because people are really nice. They'll come up and, you know, if they're mad at you, they generally just scowl a little bit. If they like you, they come up and tell you so and you appreciate that. And people are great in the state. We have a great state. It's a great job. I know you. You recently were quoted as saying no decision has been made yet about seeking a third term. Someday the administration of Norm Bangiter is going to come to an end. What would you like to have your administration known for? Well, I've made the statement that if a politician spends his time worrying about what he's going to be remembered for, he's wasting his time. Because I really believe that the challenge we have is to face the issues and provide the leadership to meet those challenges. We sometimes think in terms of we want a plan that's going to carry this state forever. We think we put together a solid plan for economic development and we think it's paying off and we're getting some very good ratings. But I hope that the one thing I want to preserve is the integrity of Norm Banger and that I, whatever came my way, I was willing to do deal with it. That I didn't try to avoid any of the major issues of the day that came before me. Other than that, I don't really have an agenda that I want to be remembered for. But I hope, hope we've dealt with our educational challenges adequately. I hope we've dealt with our economic development and I hope we've provided a good atmosphere for our people to live and expand and raise their children and that that's going to continue on in the future. Future. But it's something I don't spend too much time worrying about. We try to have a long term plan and view of what's going to happen and we try to take care of the day to day things and make sure that Utah is always in a position where we can meet whatever challenge comes to us. Governor Norm Bangoter with that, thank you for being with us and best of luck. The rest of your administration and you're welcome here anytime. Thank you. And thanks for not asking whether I was going to run again. Okay. Governor Norm Bangiter with us today at KDXU across the nation. The week of October 21st through the 27th is designated as Red Ribbon Week. In February 19th,