Larry Jewell

To do is just maybe do a little reminiscing. And if I can get you a little bit closer to the mic. Well, you ask the questions and then I'll ask the questions. And then what I'd like to do is over the next two or three days, I have about a five to seven minute program that I run in the afternoon, some feature material, and I'd like to break it up and break the interview up and use about three or four minutes of it each day for the next three days. Well, you can go in segments and whatever, talking with Fred Sanford, who is best known, at least among baseball fans in Utah as a former New York Yankee. But that was not your entire career. You started what, with the Browns? Yeah, that's the old St. Louis Browns, which is now the Baltimore franchise. They moved it from St. Louis to Baltimore quite a few years ago. Really your best winning year was with the St. Louis Browns? Well, I won more games with St. Louis in one year than I did anywhere else in the big leagues. But my best winning percentage was with the Yankees. 1949, I had seven wins and three losses. Let's talk a little bit about your career. You came out briefly before the war. Yeah, I started out in 1939, Youngstown, Ohio, which is a Class C league. 1940, went back to Youngstown. 41, got married, went to San Antonio, Texas, which was a Class A1 league. Still in the Brown organization. 1942, Toledo, Ohio, in the American association and had a couple of real good years there. Then 43, I went to the big leagues but was sent back to Toledo. And then at the end of 43 season, I was drafted in the army and come back in January of 1946, went back to Toledo, which is where I had one of my best years ever in professional baseball. I led the league in innings, pitched complete games, started 23 games and finished 21, which was a league record. I led it in strikeouts and with the most wins. At the conclusion of that season, I went to the big leagues and my first start was against the New York Yankees on a Sunday and I beat them one to nothing. A week later I pitched against the Chicago White Sox in St. Louis and beat them two to nothing. Then the next Friday we went to the White Sox park in Chicago and they brought me my comeuppance. They knocked me out in about the fifth or sixth inning. Welcome to the major leagues. Yeah, being too easy. I guess that was the end of the 46. Then I played in St. Louis for 47 and 48 and I won 12 games for the last place Browns in 1948 and was sold to the Yankees during the winter of that between 48 and 49, went to the Yankees 49, 50 and part of 51 and finished my big league career back in St. Louis. And then in 1952 and 53 I played out in the Coast League with Portland. I developed bursitis in my arm and that was the end of it at 33 years of age. Let's go back a little bit to the St. Louis Browns time. That 12 win year, that was also a year you lost 25 games or not? I lost 21. I lost five games to the Yankees that year. And the worst I got beat was three to nothing. That's one of the frustrations of a last place ball club, isn't it? Well, you do as well as you can and you almost feel satisfied if there's such a thing, even in losing because you gave your best. And you know when A team loses 105 games in a year that they're not too good of a ball club, whether you're out there on the mound or anybody else. So they thought enough of me to buy me during the winter, even after losing the 21 games. I beat the Red Sox that year. Who was a contender? I beat them three times and I beat the Detroit Tigers five times that year. And they were also as a contender. So out of the 12 wins, 10 of them was against the Yankees and first division clubs. Pitchers can't win games unless their teammates score runs for you. That's correct. My earned run average was respectable. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it surely wasn't a 12 and 21 year with the Brownies. There is an almost cult that has grown up around the Browns. People have almost worshiped the old St. Louis Browns now that they are no more. Do you still get contact from people who are interested? No, not too much. Of course, one of the claims the Browns had to fame was Pete Gray, the one armed outfielder that they brought up during the war. And then he played a little bit after the war and he started with Memphis down in the Southern League. And probably the only one armed outfielder that ever played in the big leagues. And then Bill Veeck was a promotion man that purchased the Browns back in those years and he blossomed out with a. With a midget as a pinch hitter one day in St. Louis. And that brought on a ruling in baseball that they used the term freaks, that they couldn't have any freaks as sideshow attractions in baseball. But it Was interesting how he did that. He brought a great big cake out in the middle of the infield between double headers and up jumps this midget in a St. Louis Brown uniform. And he was dressed similar to an elf with some of his costumes. So he made a production out of it. He had him insured for a half a million dollars in case anything happened to him. But he did pinch hit one game. Were you with the Browns at that time? Yes. What was the feeling on the ball club? Did you know this was going to be taking place? Yes, we knew that it was going to take place, but we didn't know how. And that's how he presented it was through a great big cake out on about three feet high. And then out jumps this midget out of the middle of the cake. Bill Veeck must have been quite a boss to work for. Well, he was different. If you recall, he used to call him Sports Shirt Bill Veeck because he never went anywhere without being in a sports shirt. I don't think he owned a coat and tie, but he promoted in Cleveland and he turned Cleveland around and he turned the St. Louis Browns around financially for a little while there. And then he got out of there and I think he ended up back over at the White Sox before he finally got through. From the St. Louis Browns, you went from last place ball club suddenly to the New York Yankees. And Yankees ruled the world. Yeah, for about four or five years there only. Well, 1947 they won. And then in 48, Cleveland won and beat out the Yankees. And then in 49, the Yankees won it 49, 50, 51. And there's a real funny thing. We won 98 games in 1949 and won the pennant. And in 1948, the Yankees won 103 games and lost the pennant by eight games as Cleveland won 111. So percentages enter into things, but still you got to beat those clubs below you if you're going to the ones right underneath you. Admittedly, there's going to be a different feeling when you get to a championship ball club. But is there a certain mystique about the Yankee pinstripes beyond just winning? Oh, yes. Yeah, they. It's the uniform and it's the pinstripes and it's kind of a hallowed institution. There's no other place. And the attendance figures show it in New York. There's no other place for the Yankees. But first, because if they don't win, why, they're a loser. And that's the way it's looked on in New York. The fans in New York must idolize the Yankees. Well, they do, but they expect them to win. And if they don't win, why, they give it to them. With being with the Yankees playing in Yankee Stadium, so much history of baseball has taken place there. Can you feel it as you walk into the stadium? Well, yes, you'd feel it, but I had been playing with another ball club before, so it wasn't like I first come to the big leagues with the Yankees. I'd been in Yankee Stadium many a time and I just loved to beat them in New York because it was just more fun to beat them in front of 60,000 people. And so some of the nostalgia of it would wear off. Naturally, even though I joined them, sure, it was great. I got in at the right time. Got in on two World Series checks which was worth about a little over $11,000 and was. Which was big money then. Now each World Series check is worth $25,000. Just one, and it took me two years to get 11,000 with that. The Yankees. If you look down the roster, the Yankees, each one of them is almost a legend in baseball in and of himself. Did it surprise you to suddenly be playing with the Yankees? Yes, it did, because you just don't expect that. However, way back in the beginning of my career, I was turned down by the Yankees because I couldn' throw hard enough. And then here they had a chance to get me when I was about 19 years old for practically nothing. And they ended up paying a pretty good piece of change to get me. But as far as playing with the Yankees, there's only one place to play and that's with a winning ball club. And I think you'd get the same thing in Boston and some of the other towns that win once in a while or quite often. But there's still an air about the Yankees that the toast to New York. And New York being the Big Apple and the biggest city and all that, it's something different. And then all of the stage shows and the things there are to see in New York, it just makes it something special. And being a young married man there, it must be interesting the. You mentioned the stage shows and all. It must be interesting to have your family back there. Well, my wife is kind of a. She acts in plays out in the ward at home and school and stuff like that. And she got to go on Broadway and go into some of those famous theaters you heard about. See the Rockettes for real and the St. James Theater, which has been there for years on 42nd Street. And we managed to see South Pacific with, with Ezio Pinza and Mary Martin. And we saw Carol Channing just about make her debut on the stage. We saw Mae west in Diamond Lil way back in the early 50s. So all in all, my wife enjoyed it and it was a real education for the kids. We had a couple of kids at that time. And we climbed to the top of the Statue of Liberty and we went to Coney island and the Bronx Zoo. So we hit the high spots. Ironically, though, I never went on top of the Empire State Building. I went in the lobby, but I never did get in the elevator to go up. Playing with some legends like Joe DiMaggio and Yogi Berra and men like that, did you honestly believe they were going to be in the hall of Fame while you were playing with them? Oh, yes. I felt, well, I knew Joe would and felt that Yogi had a good chance and I. There's a few others. Tommy Hendrick was one of the great clutch hitters on the Yankee ball club. He didn't have the average of 325. He hit around 280, but he used to drive in 100 runs and he'd hit 25 home runs. And he was known as Mr. Clutch. And those are the type of players that win ball games for you that you don't hear too much about yet. DiMaggio had the 56 game hitting streak and he, he hit a lot of home runs and was a great defensive ball player as well and a great baserunner which never come into play because his batting average and his bat did all the talking. When you look around, you stand out there on the mound with the New York Yankees and look around and see that cast behind you. Was it a more relaxing feeling as a pitcher, knowing that you had some people who could score some runs? Well, you knew they could score and you also knew that they'd go get the ball for you because they always had to put out that little extra because they were winning team. And I think the greatest thing that ever happened to me in New York was I was having a little trouble and a guy hit a ball into short center field. And if you recall, Joe DiMaggio was having that trouble with the bone spur on his heel and. And he didn't quite get to this little nubber that fell in out there. And I finally got the sight out and he come up on the way in. He caught me before I got in the dugout and he put his arm around me and said, geez, Fred. He says, I should have caught that ball for you and saved you all that trouble. I got a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes. With a statement coming from the great Joe DiMaggio to little old me from Salt Lake. I just about started balling with that. Did you feel a lot of camaraderie with the Yankees? Was it there and not with the Browns? No, I think it was there with the Browns also, but it was there with the Yankees. I mean, everybody pulled together and it was a relaxed ball club. I know the last day of the season in 49, we were playing for first place. We were tied with the Red Sox, and somebody visited the Red Sox dugout in clubhouse and said they were all tense and tied up and our guys were over there doing the same thing we did all year long. Some of them were over in the card room playing hearts and a couple other guys were around pulling practical jokes. You'd think it was the first day of the season. They weren't the least bit tied up. They just had all that confidence they was going to win. And. And I'll tell you, it was a little scary. It was one to nothing at the end of seven innings or at the end of the first half of the eighth, and we scored four runs in the last half of the eighth inning to go ahead five to nothing. And the top of the ninth, they scored three runs and had the bases loaded and we got out of it and we won it five to three. So it was a little scary that last day. The irony of that was that my wife and I had tickets to see South Pacific the night before. And here we're playing for a million dollars the next day. We couldn't concentrate too much on seeing South Pacific from that. That gave you a World Series experience. And I noticed you have the ring that goes with being world champions. But the Series, there is a different aura about it, isn't there? Well, it's just a big sideshow. The people that come to the games during the World Series are out of towners. The traveling people, the sales people that come into New York for the sales shows and things. They're the ones that get the tickets to the World Series. And the fan that's been paying all year long, of course, the box seat holders, they get the first shot at their seats. But the average person that wanted to go up and buy a ticket, there's no way he could get one. And they had 14,000 seats for sale out in the, in the bleachers. And that was about it. The rest of the tickets were given to different People, promotion and all that kind of stuff. And the average fan that paid just managed to scrape up a couple of bucks to go to the game. He couldn't get a ticket to go to the World Series. So it was. It was more a Hollywood production than it was anything natural as far as New York is concerned. Did the players sense that it was. There was something missing? Not having the fans that supported them there all year? No, they're too busy counting their money. They. You go out and look in the ballpark and you say, well, that section up there, double F, about seven rows, will pay my World Series check. That's how they looked at it. They didn't care who paid the money, but the money was there. Obviously there's more. There's more tension that comes with the World Series. More excitement. Each game seems to mean so much more than 154 during the year. Was there that feeling in the clubhouse too? To a degree. However, if I was going to want to see the best kind of baseball to be played, I would want to see the last two weeks of the season where the World Series is at stake. Once you're in the World Series, you know you're going to get a World Series. Winners or losers share. The winners get the rings also, the losers don't. However, the way it is now that the losers share is twice as much as what our winners share was. So you're looking at it and say, well, you know, here's 25,000 for winning, but 15,000 isn't bad for losing. So actually, the last two weeks of the season is the thing that counts because if you don't finish first, you don't go to the World Series. That's where the most exciting is. That to me is where you will see the greatest plays and the more excitement because everybody's pulling to win, to get there as a pitcher. Most casual fans don't realize how important a catcher is to a pitcher and how different catchers catch pitchers differently. Who was the easiest catcher or the catcher you enjoyed working with most? Well, I played about three years with Les Moss and Les and I went to Toledo the same time and we played together there and we both had good years and then we went to St. Louis and had good years and Les and I roomed together and we were pretty close and we were close off the field. We had our. We lived together in an apartment in St. Louis one year and we ate our meals together at home and on the road. So we were real close. And naturally when we got on the field we were real close, so Les and I worked real good together. But as far as your catchers, you know, people value them a different way, and pitchers especially, they want a man that they have confidence in behind the plate to help them during the game when we're out in the field. But catchers are rated both behind the bat and then at the bat. Now, Yogi is. Yogi Berra is a great hitter, but he wasn't near the accomplished receiver that some of the other catchers were. But he had the big bat and he could make a mistake behind the plate or, you know, you wouldn't get together on something. And yet a couple innings later, he may hit one out of the ballpark and win a game for you. So that's what it was with the catchers. They're just two different breeds of cats. I think it must have been interesting when Les Moss was in Salt Lake managing the Gulls to be associated with him. Oh, yes, we got together with him a few times and Les has had a tragic life. He lost his wife in an automobile accident and remarried and everything. And naturally he had the first wife with him when we were living together. So we had a lot of reminiscing to do and was very enjoyable visiting with him. As far as the hitters that a pitcher faces, people can look at the statistics and they know one guy is a good hitter, but different pitchers can get different hitters out. Who was the toughest hitter on you personally? Well, I would say that I had three very definite tough hitters to get out. One of them was Vic Wirtz with the Detroit Tigers. One of them was Tommy Hendrick with the Yankees, and the other was naturally Ted Williams. And when we'd play exhibition games against the Cardinals, why, naturally Stan Musial come into the picture. But. But with the Yankees, when I pitched against them, I used to get DiMaggio out pretty good. In fact, I got him 0 for 6 one day in New York in a 12 inning game. But he hit some balls hard, but we had them placed right and they caught him. And I found out after I joined the Yankees that I was pitching to DiMaggio's power and getting him out. So we just pitched to his power and played him that way. And. And he managed to help me out by hitting them at somebody. Hal McCrae made a statement recently for the Kansas City Royals that in order to get one solid hit, you have to hit the ball solidly twice. Did you see that as a pitcher working against major league hitters? Well, I think that comes into the picture that a lot of times you hit the ball hard and you make an out. Well, if you hit it hard again, the odds are in your favor that, that it's going to go for a base hit. But of course I can go way back. And they had an old outfielder used to, I think his name was Wee Willie Keeler and his theory was hit them where they ain't. And he didn't hit the ball very hard, but he managed to hit the ball so that they didn't catch it. But with the lively ball that we have nowadays, why, if they hit it hard, it'll carry to the outfielder sometimes where in the olden days it would have dropped in front of them. So there's a lot to it. And then now they're throwing the baseballs out as soon as somebody puts a dark spot on them. Before they used to let them rub shoe polish on them and look like you were hitting the ball that was bouncing coming up at you. And now if it gets a little bit of a spot on it, they throw it out and they give the pitcher a brand new one again. Admittedly they're in all eras of baseball there are ball players who could play in all areas and do an outstanding job. Looking at modern baseball, who do you think would be the people that you think are the best players now? Well, for instance, Hank Aaron proved it over a long period of time. He played in two different eras and he ends up breaking Babe Ruth's record, which was one of them they said would never be broken. And yet he broke it by 30 some odd home runs. I think he ended up hitting 755 where Ruth hit 714. So he would could have played anywhere and anytime. And I think a lot of the ball players today, Reggie Jackson probably would have been a star at anywhere along the line. But it's hard to say because the game is made according to what kind of a team you have. You build your game on what you have available. And maybe if you've got a power hitting club, you don't sacrifice, you go for the big inning. If you've got a club that don't score a lot of runs, then they peck away at you. They have to use the sacrifice more. So it's hard to compare. It's just back into the fight game. Joe Loud Lewis against Muhammad Ali, you know, or Jack Dempsey era, who knows? I mean there's no way of comparing them really. I can see your career really spanned a key part of Major League baseball history right after the war. Trying to get things back together after the war pretty well hurt baseball. The breaking of the color barrier with Jackie Robinson, Larry Doby and those guys, the power coming back into major league baseball and suddenly some stolen bases slowly starting to come in. About that time, that was a great evolution time of baseball. Did you sense it at that time? No, I don't think we did. I was fortunate enough in 1939, which was my first year and that was the hundredth year of baseball from Cooperstown. And incidentally, I'd been to Cooperstown once and saw the Cooperstown hall of Fame. But I was in St. Louis when we brought in two colored boys. And then St. Louis is right near the old Mason Dixon line. So, you know, there was some sort of. You just wondered what the reaction would be there. But in the, in the years I played, I did see a lot. I mean, the game deteriorated a little bit bit just during the war because of the absence of some of the big leaguers that were called into service. And then it took a year or two after the war was over to get it back into style again, so to speak. I think it's steadily improved as far as players are concerned in ability and conditioning and everything. But I'm disappointed in the way the salaries are going and, and the way money is playing such an important part. And I don't think you have the dedicated ball players today that you had then because all we had was a year's salary in baseball and a lot of us had to go home and get a job in the winter. Now these people are all self made millionaires, independent and they got more things on their mind than the baseball game. They're worrying about the stock market or how their investments are going or how the contractor's doing out on that condominium that of 10 units that they're building for them or something like that. They're in a hurry to get the game over with so they can go check on their financial situation. I think that's my own opinion. They seem to get two different types of ballplayers with the long term contracts. Those that get it and relax and those that get it and then with that relaxation actually play better, keep producing. And some of them just get the big money and then just say, well, not much they can do. I've got this contract for five years, so I'll just go out and go through the motions. There's ball players from the inside and they go out and really put out. Admittedly, being a pitcher is kind of a tenuous sort of thing. Your career can end at any time. And your arm trouble cost you your career. Did you think about that early, that arm trouble could end? No, no. Well, you know, it's always in the the back of your mind. But I was always real healthy and strong. I had good legs and that's what they say pitchers are made of. If your legs go, then you're in trouble. But I was always in good condition and even though I was fairly heavy, I refereed basketball in the winter and I kept active and I did a lot of running and my legs held up real good and they have done right up till the last few years. Do you like the emphasis on speed now in Major League Baseball? Oh, I think so. I think there's more interest in it when you got a guy like Henderson sitting down there and you know he's going to go on the first chance and then Maury Wills started it a few years ago and I like to see variety. I don't like to see a game just sit back and wait for somebody to hit one out of the park. I think you like to see a little finesse rather than all power. What about the designated hitter? Are you in favor or against it? Being a pitcher, I'm against it. That was one thing when you started the ball game. I think the thing that made you feel worse than anything was not lasting long enough to get to hit. You like to bat and I hit.200 in the big leagues one year, which is pretty good for a pitcher. I out hit a couple of regulars and hit a home run or two. And so I like to hit. So I wouldn't want to play with the designated hitter rule. I like it like a chance to get up there and bat. There's a young man from St. George that's pitching in the major leagues right now, Bruce Hurst with the Red Sox. I understand that you and Ralph Halk were teammates with the Yankees. We're twins. Really. We're born the same day in the same year. August 9, 1919 19. We just had a birthday. We're both 63 years old and we spent a lot of time together on the Yankees in the bullpen. And we roomed together part of the time and went around together a lot. So we're real close. Hauck seems to earn a lot of respect for his ball players. Did he have that same sort of respect as a teammate? You bet. If you recall, Hauk was a. I don't know whether he won a Congressional Medal of Honor from the Ranger Battalion in the Marines, but he was a well decorated major As a leader of a Ranger battalion in the World War II. So he carried that right on the field. He was a dominating factor, but he wasn't the type of an individual that caused any problems. He just knew what he could do and he knew how far to go. And I like the guy myself, and I like Billy Martin, too, so he's my kind of guy. I was with Billy part of the time, and he stops by and says hello once in a while when he comes through Salt Lake, and I think that's pretty good. Martin must be a lot easier to live with than he is to see from a distance. His fans read or watch, watch him from a distance. Oh, yeah, he's. Well, he causes a lot of problems and he lives fast. I mean, if you recall the Stork Club incident with him and Mantle and Ford. But basically, Martin is a pretty nice fellow. The first World Series check he got, he took a chunk of it and bought a new Cadillac for a Catholic priest that helped raise him. So he isn't all bad. The most memorable teammate, who would you. Well, Les Moss, obviously, is one of the more memorable teammates, but the most memorable teammate outside of Les Moss that you had over the years? Oh, probably a fellow by the name of Bob Dillinger that was an infielder. And we came up together through the Brown organization into St. Louis, and he eventually went with the Philadelphia Athletics, but we were pretty close, and he lives out in California, and our wives were close and we had kids about the same time, so we were pretty close. I think he was probably as close as anybody. Do you miss not being associated with Major League Baseball? Not a bit. People say, I'll bet you're down to the ballpark every night. And I'll say, well, you lost your bet. I says, I haven't seen a game in two years. And they say, you what? I says, well, that's true. I says, you got to look at it from another point of view as a baseball player. We were working a shift, four to midnight, straight afternoons. We had no family life around the house, no cookouts, no yards to take care of, no. No flower beds, no gardens to raise. I worked 18 years at Dirks Field after I quit playing ball as a ticket manager and selling and things like that. And then I finally quit a few years ago, and since then I've just been working in. I have a great big yard to take care of, and I work in the yard. I keep it up and I've got a nice looking yard. I planted some vegetables this year, incidentally. I just retired from Salt Lake City Corporation three months ago. So I've got a garden, and that's where I spend my time. I go out in the mornings and play 18 holes of golf now and come home and maybe take a little nap. And then when the sun goes down and it cools off a little, I go out and work in the yard, cut the lawns and weed the garden and water and stuff like that. But you still enjoy baseball? Yes, I do. I follow it in the newspaper, but I don't go to too many games. Fred Sanford, thank you for being with us. I appreciate the honor. Thank you.