Larry Jewell

For the ABC Information Network, I'm Don Fisher. This is KDXU, 1450St. George. And welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to a special edition of Opinion Please on KDXU in St. George, Utah. Larry Jewell with you today. He's substituting for Charlie Wanlis, who has operation problems, I understand, in the family. We have two very special guests today. Dr. W. Cleon Skousen, professor of Brigham Young University, former police chief in Salt Lake City. And I guess, Dr. Skousen, that's one of the credits that you keep getting thrown at you many times being a former police chief at Salt Lake. Well, that was an exciting assignment. I wouldn't have missed it for anything. And our other guest today is Eldridge Cleaver, who is known for good and ill, depending on who you talk to and what stage of his life. Eldridge Cleaver, a man who was a member of the Black Panther Party and now is. Has left the country and is back and preaching Americanism. Mr. Cleaver, welcome. Thank you. I'm glad to be here this morning. First of all, let's get some of the business out of the way. You're both in town not just for this program, but for a program tonight at Dixie High school. I understand, Dr. Skousen. Yes. I've asked Eldridge Cleaver to tell one of the most fascinating and remarkable stories that folks are likely to hear, and people need to hear it in America because we take our country so much for granted. And Eldridge Cleaver has a story that they won't want to miss. And so we brought him down to speak tonight at the Dixie High School, 7 o'. Clock. And we'll just be delighted to have as many come as possible to hear his exciting story. Now, this is part of the Freeman Institute seminar program, I understand. Yes, we're having our people who have graduated from the seminar as our special guests to be there tonight. We're honoring them. But the public is entitled to come and. And hear this important message. Needless to say, this is going to be an extended program this evening. We'll only be able to touch upon a part of the story and maybe some things that will not be coming out tonight. We will not be talking about today. But first of all, the two of you, how did you get together? How did you come in contact with each other? Other? Well, about January 9th, I was speaking to 1400 people down in San Jose, California, and just barely getting into my talk and I looked down in front of me and there and behold, I thought to myself, that that looks like Eldridge Cleaver. And I could remember that countenance on FBI wanted posters back in 1968. I couldn't believe my eyes. And afterwards, I found that he was the guest of a very prominent member of the community there in San Jose and a good friend of mine. And so we all went over to the man's house, and Eldridge and I talked for a couple of hours. And it was thrilling to me to see where he'd come from, because he went from right to the bottom of the barrel and hating America and wanting to burn it down to realizing after eight years in the communist country that not only was atheism wrong, but communism was the very opposite of where we should be going. And he came back willing to go to prison and serve out his time in order to make it right with himself and with the law and with God and tell the story of discovery that was the result of those tremendous years. Mr. Cleaver, let's talk a little bit about the situation you found yourself in as a youth. Now, how did you get into the whole rigmarole of revolutionary politics? Well, I became a rebellious person at a young age, and I started getting into trouble with the law and going to reform schools and finally to an adult prison. And while I was in prison, at the age of 18, I was introduced to the communist Manifesto, and I started studying communism and studying Marxism with the ambition and goal of becoming a professional revolutionary. And I stayed in prison for 10 years. And throughout all that time, I studied this ideology towards the day that I would get out so that I could then try to put it into practice. And, of course, this was during the time when the whole war in Indochina was exposed. Exploding in Vietnam, and all kinds of opposition domestically was developing towards the war and against the war. And the black civil rights movement came together with that anti war movement to constitute a kind of tremendous force that we remember from the 60s. And I got out of prison right in the middle of all of that in 1966. And I quickly found my way to the Black Panther Party. And I was attracted to the black panther party because they were an armed organization and they were a violent organization. And I was already a violent person. And so it was just like water seeking its own level. And I quickly became one of the top leaders of the organization. I was in charge of their political education and founded the newspaper and so forth. And it happened that at that time, black people on the grassroots level, the lower class blacks where I came from, were beginning to reject the leadership of organizations like the NAACP or Dr. Martin Luther King's non violent movement. And it was just that the opportunity arose and I had had the preparation of studying Marxism. And so it just all came together into a very violent period of the 60s there. Some people have accused America of being a very violent society. Did you see that at that time? Well, I think America is a violent society. I think that we have a whole history of, you know, eking out a country out of a vast wilderness. And there's a lot of shooting going on throughout American history. And I think that the norms that are supposed to prevail in the society that would decree peace amongst the people have been broken down in so many different ways because of all of the domestic conflicts and also conflicts over foreign policy that we used to say that violence was as American as apple pie. This is one of the slogans from the 60s. I think you can exaggerate the amount of violence that there is because it's not all of the American people who are violent. You have violence concentrated in these really unworkable cities where you have huge populations concentrated. And I think that when you get all of the disparate elements that we find in these cities, then you have a prescription for violence. We were part of that. Your, you grew up in Oakland, California, am I right? Well, I was born in Little Rock, Arkansas, I'm happy to say, and not in Oakland. And my family came to California during the Second World War. And we just paused briefly and opened. And I actually grew up in Los Angeles, California. And I came to Northern California when I got out of prison, I went to prison from Los Angeles. But while I was in prison, I recognized that all of the turmoil and violence and rebellion was really centered in Northern California, particularly in Berkeley, around the University of California at Berkeley, where you had the Free Speech movement and the Dirty Speech movement and every other movement that came down the pike. Well, the combination of Berkeley and Oakland, which both are in Alameda county, that was kind of a volatile situation. And I was attracted to that because of all of the stuff that was going on there from there. Had you pretty well accepted a Marxist doctrine as your political staple? Oh, absolutely. I felt that this was the blueprint for overthrowing the American government, for getting rid of the capitalist economic system. And as communists, we were taught to hate policemen, businessmen and politicians. And the Communist doctrine has it all boiled down into a little formula. It's easy to understand and it seems to make everything crystal clear. And it's something you can just pick up and run with. And so having spent so many years studying this in prison. When I got out of prison, I was in charge of the political education in the Black Panther Party. And as such, I was in charge of indoctrinating other people with this ideology. Now, you never became a member of the American Communist Party? No, I didn't join the American Communist Party simply because we thought it was too conservative, and we wanted something much more radical. And we didn't like the manipulation and control that the Communists were always guilty of doing. Like, they would come into your. Your organization or into your community, and then they would deform what you were doing to suit ends that you didn't have anything to do with. And the black movement in the United States for many years going back to the 30s, really had that experience. And there's much documentation to show what happens when you let the Communists get control of your organization. So we really only tried to use them when we needed them. For instance, they had a lot of lawyers, and we even ended up not appreciating the lawyers because even in their legal strategy, they would turn it towards their own goals and ends. And we had very bad experiences with them. And so we didn't really like to even have them around. So there is a fragmentation among those who have espoused the Marxist doctrine at that time. That's why you get the term the New left, you see, and the old Left, because the old left was the old Communist Party. And you found that a new generation of young Communists felt that the old Communist Party was passe and that it was too conservative. This was also amongst young white radicals. They're the ones that were known as the New Left. And a lot of them were children of the old Communist Party members. Now, looking back at this, was there a feeling of, let's say, all run away to some Communist bloc country? Or was there a feeling of we love the land that we live in and we want to see a Communist government here? That was basically the attitude that we loved the land, we loved America. And we used to talk a lot about the American dream. And we felt that the establishment, as we used to talk about the government and the economy and the present leaders, we felt had abandoned our. The American dream. And we felt that they were instituting a system of oppression. And so our idea was to overthrow this present establishment and get rid of it, and then on its ashes, establish a new society, a utopia, a communist dream. And I left the United States, but not so much that I wanted to go and live in a communist country, but I wanted to avoid going to Prison following the shootout that I was involved in with the Oakland Police Department and having a choice between trying to live underground in the United States, which is really difficult, or going back to prison, which was certain. If I had gotten caught, I chose to go to Cuba, which was closest communist country to the United States. Let's take a moment here. I think we have a phone call. If I could get you to put on your earphone so we can take this phone call. Yes, yes, you're on the air. Yes, I'd like to know from Mr. Cleaver why you have. Your life seems to be on a pendulum. You were in when you were younger, you were bad. When you were bad, you were very, very bad. And now you have embraced the Mormon religion. And that is such a swing to the far right that I don't understand why. Why the pendulum effect in your life. Well, I think you have to do what you feel is right. You have to follow where you feel you're being led. And I definitely did not choose the Mormon Church the way that it happened with me. I had a friend who was out in the streets with me in the 1960s. He was a wild man, a wild radical. He was a white guy. And when I left the country in 1968, this guy joined the Mormon Church in 1970. And I didn't see him again or hear anything about him or really even think about him until September of last year. And he came to see me. He found out where I was working in California. And he said, hey, I hear you're a born again Christian. I said, yeah, that's right. He said, well, I'm a Mormon. And I was very surprised. And so we started talking about the Mormon Church. And he invited me to attend services with him and I went with him. And he put the missionaries on my trail and I took the lessons that they offered. And I just began to like what I heard. I began to meet a lot of wonderful people, and I like the people. And I began to investigate the program of the church, and I like the program, and I'm just happy. I mean, I looked around all over America. I visited many churches. I've spoken in many churches. I know all kinds of preachers, but I just never found a church that I wanted to join. And I think that I have a right to choose the church of my choice. And while it might be surprising to some people, it should not offend them. Oh, no, definitely not. I'd like to know, is there a book forthcoming about your life? Yes, we do. That's an obvious Question. I think we're working very frantically on a book. And I think that if you're in the area, if you can attend our program tonight, you'll be able to get some material that we already have available. Plus you'll hear discussion in great detail about why the changes in my life. And I think after hearing that, you can understand it much better. And then we can be in contact. And when the book is ready, we can make sure that you get one of the first copies. Thank you very much. Thank you for calling. Back to the idea of the pendulum in your life was did the conversion to Christianity, did that take place overseas, outside of the country? Yes, it happened while I was in France. But the real thing that started the changes happening in my life was first of all, living in communist countries. When I left the United States, I was a dedicated communist and a Marxist who saw that the hope of the world lay in transforming the whole world into a communist paradise. That was my attitude when I left the United States and going to these communist countries. I went there to study and to learn to become a better revolutionary, a better communist. And the more I saw of what was really going on in the country, how the people felt about the regimes and how the dictatorships really worked, the more I saw that, the less I wanted to do with it. And of course, I reached a point where I found the whole thing repulsive. This is after many years. A lot of people think that I just flip flopped overnight. This was an eight year process. I was gone from the United States for eight years. I lived in Cuba for eight months, Algeria for four years, and in France for three years. And during that time I had a chance to travel all over the world and visit all of these countries. And the main thing that happened to me was I became a father. I had a son born in Algeria in 19 and had a daughter born in North Korea in 1970. And my children had a profound spiritual effect on me. And I credit their existence and their development with stimulating my first realization that indeed there was a God presiding over this universe. And of course, once that seed was planted, it began to grow and grow until it just flourished. You know, let's talk a little bit about the travels to Cuba to get in and then out of Cuba, and then not to really live in a communist country after that. Algeria is communist leaning and admittedly, but that isn't a communist country. Well, they don't call themselves communists and they have a dictatorship, you see, you find a dictatorship, for instance, in Korea. They don't say that they Have a communist party. They call it the Korean Workers Party Party. But what distinguishes and what for me is the proof of it is the form of the regime. Here's what happened in the communist world and in the third world. When the Russians overthrew the tsar, they established a democratic republic. And then the Bolsheviks overthrew the democratic republic and established a dictatorship. And in the name of moving the country into the future, they actually reverted to the machinery of the czar. And so the other communist countries that came about patterned their regime after that of the Soviet Union. And then these third world countries, including Algeria, patterned their dictatorships after the ones that existed in the communist world. And so you might not call them communists, but they certainly have that form of dictatorial regime. Dictatorships. Yeah, Military dictatorships and one party dictatorships. Regardless of the name, the way that the state apparatus functions is the same. What about the freedom of travel? Looking from this country, you don't see that there is that much freedom of travel from one communist country to another or around the world. Once you're in the communist or inside of communist countries, I mean, you can't go from one city to another without a pass. Like in Cuba, you cannot go from Havana to Oriente province. You couldn't even buy a bus ticket unless you had a little pass that allows you to do that. And a lot of people don't understand that. And we weren't able just to pop up in a communist country at will. This was all pre arranged. We had to go there by invitation. Back in those days, you couldn't go to the airport and buy a plane ticket to Peking. The only way you could get there was by invitation to participate in a particular program. Now you were considered a celebrity in the communist world. Yeah, in every communist country and also in every third world country, they all look in one way or another at the United States. And they all want to get the attention of the American people. And they used to pursue us because they wanted the support of the Black Panther Party because they felt that the Black Panther Party could get them support amongst American radicals. And what they wanted was to have their story told. They wanted to get some sympathy from the American people. For instance, the North Koreans wanted to get the sympathy of the American people to support their claims over South Korea because they wanted to take control of South Korea. And you'll find that in all of these countries, basically the same kind of attitude exists. And so they were very anxious to be on good terms with us. And that's why we got so many invitations to visit Their countries. They wanted Eldridge Cleaver to be there. Well, because I was in charge of our operation in Algeria. We had what we call the international section of the Black Panther Party that was recognized by the Algerian government. And Algeria was a host country for revolutionary movements under a program financed and sponsored by the Organization of African Unity. And so we came under that program. So this was to spread into the third world, mostly African countries. And the Black Panther Party. Well, what we used to do, we had an information gathering and disseminating operation. We would take information about what was going on inside of the United States and publish it all over the third world in communist countries. Then we would get information about what was going on in communist countries and the third world countries and send it back inside of the United States. When you made the break with the Black Panthers, did this come at the time of your move from Algeria to France? No, it was while we were still in Algeria, and I would say 1971. 1970, we began to have big differences with the people back in the United States and what was happening. See, as I traveled from Cuba to Algeria and all these other communist countries, I would send back reports to the Black Panther Party here. And from the very beginning, the first report that I sent back from Cuba, they didn't like it because it was critical of Cuba. It was critical of the communist regime. And I was describing the relationship of the people to the government and how the people felt about the government. And they found it inconvenient because it meant that they had to re. Educate the troops and rewrite a lot of material, and it wasn't convenient to do that. It was easier to continue in the same rut. And so the more information that I gathered, the more useless I became to my friends back here. We have another phone call. Let's take your call right now. You're on the air. Yeah, I'd like to address a question, Mr. Cleaver. He may have already covered this before I just turned in, but I would like to know how involved he feels the communists are in various activities in our country. What about the Black Panther Party to begin with? Well, the Black Panther Party now has become part of the Democratic Party, and that's surprising to a lot of people. But that's what happened with these black mayors and different people who've gotten power in various cities. They pulled in black militants and so forth. Aging process mellows people. Well, I think that's part of it. But also they found these people to be useful because they did have some political knowledge and Expertise in organizing and so forth. But as far as the main question that the gentleman asked, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind, because I've been part of that whole operation that the communists and also the OPEC countries are sending millions, millions and millions of dollars into the United States. And what they do, they give money to any organization. It doesn't have to be a communist organization, but any organization that is an element of instability. For instance, they'll give money to the Ku Klux Klan and to the Black Muslims, to the Black Panthers, and they give money to for people who want to file suits. Now, I don't want to get any suits filed against me, but I'm not going to name any organizations. But there are organizations that are well known legal organizations that provide legal aid to left wing people. I know for a fact that they receive money from communist countries and then they are able to file all these frivolous suits that they use environmental issues or over nuclear power, anything that creates confusion, they will provide money to file a suit. And this is called a destabilization program. And anybody familiar with military tactics know that before you attack a country, it's best to soften that country up to destabilize the population and create as much confusion internally as possible. And I would say that the United States of America has been the target of this kind of activity ever since the Second World War. And it has made deep inroads into the thinking of people. I don't know how many spies we have in the United States, but I am convinced that there are thousands and thousands of spies from all these different communist black countries who come in here, take on American identities using fast, I mean, false passports and things. And the United States is wide open. Because when I was a fugitive, I was able to go and come at will. I know many people who left the United States clandestinely and were able to return on different missions and come in and out. I would say that the communists would be able to send an army of thousands and thousands of people into the United States just by coming through the Canadian border, coming through Mexico, or actually coming through JFK airport in New York. And all they have to do is have the right kind of paper that's not on the hot list and they can come in. It's the same sort of financial activity, financial encouragement, also going on in Canada and in Western Europe. From your experience, it's a worldwide situation. And every country, the communists have maps on the wall with every country they have a section of experts dealing with every country. When I went to China, for instance. The man who met us at the airport had lived in the United States for many, many years, about 50 years. He was an expert on the United States. He spoke colloquial English. He had a PhD in American history. He knew the names of every kind of radical organization. He knew the names of individuals who were members of those organizations. So what I'm saying, they monitor in detail what's going on in the United States. They have people going around collecting every leaflet that's passed out at demonstrations. They get all copies of every newspaper. And they have people assigned. It's their job to analyze this and stay on top of the issues. And they're better informed about what's going on in America than many Americans are. Dr. Skousen, you were involved with the FBI during probably one of the strongest organizing periods of communist activity in the United States. You found that at that time, I'm sure, didn't you? We not only found it out, but we found it most difficult to communicate with the American people on the subject. They just couldn't believe that it was happening. And it would be reported by Mr. Hoover. It would be reported by the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee and the House Internal Security Committee and people just couldn't believe it. And eventually those committees were dissolved. They were wiped out. And that's why I wrote the book the Naked Communist, to try and share some of that information. Does that answer your question? Yes. I was going to follow up with another question of. It appears that they have been very successful. And that apparently sounds like Mr. Skousen answered that. That perhaps the apathy of the American people have contributed to their success. Let's see. I think we may have another call on the other line. Thank you for. I would just like to comment. It's not so much the apathy of the people, just that we cannot believe that such deviousness takes place. Because the Communists work on two levels. And they're always taught to deny that this is going on or to deny that they're Communists and so forth. Okay. We have another phone call. You're on the air. Yes. I'd like to know, sir. Mr. Cleaver, for all the information you know, aren't you afraid for your life? That's a good question. Well, I just refuse to take that attitude. A lot of people ask me that, but I don't see any reason why I should stand up in my own country and be afraid of people. I had enough of that when I was living in Communist countries. And I think that they should Start getting afraid of us, frankly. Does that answer your question? Yes. Have you any of this information that you have, have you turned over to the FBI or the agency within our own federal government? Well, the way that I operate, I talk to anybody who wants to talk to me. I have avoided any of these closed door hearings and so forth. But I'm sure that the FBI comes to hear me talk and Dr. Skousen knows a lot of FBI agents. And I think that the information that I have is available to anybody who wants to use it. And for five years I've been going all over America talking about what I know and what I've learned. And I welcome the FBI or anybody else who wants access to this. I think. Let me just comment on that briefly. One of the great satisfactions I personally have is hearing Eldridge Cleaver tell the story that we in the FBI and the security services have been trying to tell America for so long. But they would say, well, that's your job to give us that particular line, et cetera, which, in other words, we couldn't get a creditable hearing. And the great advantage of having Eldridge Cleaver tell the story is that he's coming from over there and he's telling what it was like and what it did to him and what they were intending to do to America. And all of a sudden it's become highly credible to the media and to schools, to a lot of people who formerly would not listen to us. I'd just like to make one remark. A lot of people accuse me of being a CIA agent and FBI agent. And once one of my old lawyers, who's also kind of a left winger, he was on a radio program, so people asked him if he thought that I was an FBI agent. He said, no, he's worse than an FBI agent because he's doing this stuff for free, you know. Thank you. Thank you for calling. Mr. Cleaver, looking at the America you found when you came back in 1975, as opposed to the one that you left, what were the differences? Has the country mellowed? Has it become more diverse, more free, or more tight? Well, I think the specific issues that I was involved in, the confrontation that I was involved in, I think the country has resolved those. And this is what I'm talking about. Historically, black people have been fighting on two fronts in America. We were trying to do something about the quality of life issues, the bread and butter issues on the one hand, and on the other hand, we had to deal with these color line problems that came down from slavery and segregation and so forth. Well, the fact is that we were always preoccupied with these color lines, these separate but equal issues, and never really able to deal with fully with the bread and butter issues, the quality of life issues. So that I believe that the color line issues are what were resolved in the 60s and now people are focused in on these quality of life issues. You don't find black people now trying to organize black organizations to deal with these color line issues. They don't even hardly talk about that stuff anymore. Now everybody's talking about these quality of life issues, these bread and butter issues. So I would say that there's been a big change, historic change that took place in the 60s. I think that we were so much involved in it that it's hard for us to see it. But I think that future generations will look back and say the country really went through a gigantic transformation. When you realize that the whole south had its way of life transformed during that decade, that's a tremendous and epic transformation. Looking now in this perspective, years later, does it surprise you that there has been, how can I say, an adoption of the black part of this country, the black ancestry, into the mainstream of American life? Now, admittedly, it's still. There are still differences, but has it surprised you that it's taken place? Well, I'd say that the biggest surprise was the passage of the 14th Amendment and the emancipation procuration which made black Americans American citizens. I think that a country that has the ability to do that is a country that is able to follow through. And do I think that after the passage of those amendments and the Emancipation Proclamation that everything else was like a hundred year mopping up exercise so that no, following all of those battles and those victories, that I'm not surprised that we have resolved it in this manner. There is an opinion among many that US exposes a lot of dirty laundry, a lot of its own dirty laundry. What about the impressions overseas? Do people admire this? Do they fear for the U.S. what? I think they admire this. They are amazed that we're able to survive. And after doing this, and I'll tell you like, one of the greatest moments of my experience was while I was in France, we had a war going on in Indochina. At the same time we had impeachment process going against the President. And yet the country was able to fight a war, take care of its foreign relations, run its domestic operations, while also having this high drama going on over the impeachment of the president. So I think that that is really the strength of America the fact that we are able to bring our dirty linen out and wash it and iron it and get it straight, whereas these other countries allow it to stack up in the closet and it just turned into a putrid storehouse. We have another phone call now. You're on the air. Hello? Yes, you're on the air. Yeah. I have a question for Mr. Cleaver. If he's so anti communist, how can he so easily join a church and organization with a rich history and tradition of utopianism and communalism? That's an interesting question. From an economic point standpoint, there is a communalism, a small sea Communism, I guess you could say, of the tradition in the church, especially Orderville, for example, right here, some of the early history of the church. Now, what about that? It's a concept of community and relationship between people and it's a loving relationship and a caring relationship. And I think one of the reasons why communism is able to make any kind of progress in the world is because people know that we're supposed to have some form of community. We're not supposed to be every man in Ireland going in every which way. We're supposed to have some kind of unity. And this unity has been destroyed by various developments in the economy and in the society. So that the fact that the church practices a form of relationship and community and that they look out for each other, I think this is a positive aspect and it is not communism. It's not the same thing that we're talking about what's going on in these communist countries. There's a big difference in that. Now, isn't this one of the basic theories behind Marxism is the fact that there's. There should be, without actually saying, a loving relationship. But this should be a voluntary sort of thing. In one sense, that there should be a communist setup. But this is not. See, this is a mistake to just say that this is a communist belief. You go back to the New Testament, you'll find out that the early Christians had that same kind of belief. And people have been trying all down through history to regain a sense of community. This is what's been broken down. And the church is in the process of restoring a wholesome relationship in a balanced way. And that's good. I think that all these other churches could benefit by practicing some of that themselves. So the difference is in attitude. Really the biggest difference. No, it's in attitude, but it's also in structure, in the form of organization. That's very important because the communists, in return for giving people a sense of community, put on them the most authoritarian dictatorship regime that ever existed in history, and that's the difference. But what they use as bait is this warm, loving, caring, communal relationship which I think all mankind aspires to. Does that answer your question? Yeah, thanks. Thank you for calling. Following up a little bit on that. When you're talking about a united order, you were talking mostly about an economic system and not totally a political system. Is that what you're saying? I'm not sure I understand your question. You're talking with a Marxist communist idea. You're talking about an economic and political system as opposed to just an economic system. Yeah, see, that's the problem. See, communism Marxism is a unified political and economic theory, and it calls for a dictatorship. Whereas we in the United States believe in a democratic form of government, and it's decreed by the Constitution. And I think that when you take the two and get them all mixed up together with the state owning everything, then you've got a prescription for totalitarianism, dictatorship, and spiritual unhappiness on the part of the people, which I've witnessed myself personally. Let's get back to Eldridge Cleaver. A little bit about the charges that you faced when you came back to the U.S. knowing that you faced serious charges, felonious charges. What. What sort of impulses did you have? What sort of feelings did you have as you set foot in the United States government, again knowing that you would be picked up? Well, I just believed that the government would not be out to get me or to railroad me or to frame me up in any way. But see, in the 1960s, the. The government really had its handful, and what they were doing was trying to get rid of people who were leading these radical organizations and so forth, so that they began to cut corners on how they framed the charges against people. So that they had framed charges against me that were like conspiracy charges that carried a total of 75 years. And they weren't too fastidious about how they put that together. Well, I felt that with that immediate provocation removed, that my case could be sorted out in a more calm and cool atmosphere. And having had lots of experience with the American judicial system, you know, I know how you're treated, and a lot of people complain and so forth, but I've always been treated basically fairly by the system, even when I was just totally guilty of heinous crimes. And so I felt that I could come back and have my day in court and get the things sorted out and that a balance would be reached. And that's what Happened the district attorney in Alameda county, after taking a good look at the charges, he dropped those excessive charges. And then I changed my plea from not guilty to guilty. I definitely was not going to plead guilty to what they charged me with in 1968, but after they eliminated the conspiracy charges and so forth, that I was very happy to change my plea. The personal change in your life, it has to be a change of habit of living that has taken place. That couldn't have been easy. Well, it was difficult, but it was based on my outlook on life and my moral values and so forth. And I'll tell you, I did not even admit that I was married until after my children were born. I always my self concept was that of a wild bachelor. So I had a double life going. But once I began to have a spiritual experience growing out of my marriage and the birth of my children, I began to be able to judge the value of the kind of running around that I was. And so I began to appreciate my family and the fact that I was a father and so forth. And a lot of my friends. I've been married 14 years now, and when we first got married, no one thought it would last a year. And when I look at what happened to the marriages of my other friends, I'm very glad of what happened to me. We have a couple of phone calls now. First, you're on the air. I have black Muslim friends that seem obvious candidates for the Mormon Church. That is their beliefs in family unity and the pride that they take in themselves. Is there any chance that Eldridge Cleveland can reach these, the Muslim religion? Well, that's kind of a leading question, I guess. Can you reach them? I'm going to hang up and listen. Okay, now this is a very good and perceptive point because I have a lot of friends who are Black Muslims and I get along with them very well. And I have a couple of them who are like leaders in the movement in the San Francisco, Berkeley area, to my grace of prize, have turned out to be the most receptive people of all. And I think it has to do with their concept of the family, but it also has to do with their dissatisfaction with the way that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been taught in the black community and with their dissatisfaction with what's going on inside of the Nation of Islam at this time where there's really chaos following the death of Elijah Muhammad. There's nothing but confusion. There are all kinds of splits going on inside the organization. And I don't like to try to be a prophet or anything. But I would predict that over the next five years we're going to see a large number of black people joining the church. We're running a little bit long. Let's just take one more call and a couple of follow up questions. You're on the air. Yes. Mr. Cleaver, in your travels throughout the world, I'm sure you've seen a lot of economic situations in countries. Would you say that since you've been back in the United States? The United States people are more of a give me something for nothing type attitude people than people around the world? Well, I'm not able to really say that. I think that there is a lot of get rich quick attitudes. You can find a lot of dog eat dog attitude, but it's not something that you don't find in other countries. I think that people in the United States like to get something for their labor and that they believe in earning something and that everybody can get rich. And we want to believe that it's possible to go out and do something and get something out of it. But you find people all over the world aspiring to this. The human beings, but the systems around the world often don't permit people to do that. That's why you find so many people jumping on coconut shells and trying to paddle across the creek to get here. But I think that this is human nature. People want to succeed in life. They want to be able to have the good things of life. It's just that in America everybody in the world knows that it's possible to do that here, whereas it's impossible to do that in certain other countries. Does that answer your question? We have Dr. Skousen like to make a response to. Go ahead. In the Freeman Institute we have tried to present our program in a way that it will be helpful to people of all religions. It doesn't. It's a non denominational program and some of our biggest seminars are held in, in churches, actually in church buildings of Methodist Church and the Baptist Church and so forth. And so it's important to clarify the fact that when Eldridge Cleaver decided to become a Mormon, that was independent of his participation in the Freeman program per se. That needs to be understood. Let's bring that up. The Freeman Institute is not affiliated with any religion. That is correct. Nor any other organization. And it presents the founding Fathers story. And I myself happen to be a Mormon and I respond to anybody who asks about that particular subject. But that has nothing to do. There's nothing in our program that relates directly to Mormonism per se, or methodism per se, or Catholicism per se. It's just a magnificent, exciting story of the. Of our American heritage and what we have to do to get it back. Because we've wandered terribly from the original success formula that the founders had, and it's created a hundred different problems that we've specifically identified, and these can be solved by going back to the original formula. I just wanted to make sure that that was thoroughly understood. Does that answer your question? Yes, it does. Thank you. If in a few moments we have left, looking back now at the situation you were in the 1960s, situation you are in now, looking back, do you feel like it was a valuable experience, not just for you personally, but for this country to go through that? Well, I think, you know, when you look back, with hindsight, you can rewrite history, but when you just look at the development, it was like an inevitable development given all of the things that converged at that moment in history. And I think that those issues had to come to a head. And it was the basic question was the status of black people in the American social order. And I think that there was a big debate following the 1954 Supreme Court decision. I think that the status of black people began to be debated, and it came to that head in the 60s. And I'm glad that it happened the way that it happened, because there has been a resolution of those issues, as I mentioned earlier. And I look back with no regrets. But if I could have done it differently, of course I would have done it differently. But we did what we did, given the information that we had at that time. Needless to say, you probably regret some of the felonious problems. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like I say, if I could have done it differently, it would have been great. I think it's important to recognize, too, that life comes to all of us in different flavors and on different levels and in different dimensions. And Eldridge Cleaver demonstrates dramatically that nobody should be written off now. Some people are going to have to go through some extremely catastrophic experiences is to shake loose some of the carbuncles, barnacles, I should say, that collect on our ships as we go through life. But nevertheless, we human beings have great common qualities, definitive qualities that we share with one another. And that means that we should use kindness but firmness in presenting the truth whenever there's an opportunity and not forget anybody. That inherently and basically and potentially in every human being, there's some sparks there that, if properly lighted, will find their way toward the end of the tunnel and come out all right. And that's not only true with Eldridge. I had that same experience with a number of other people. You have the dramatic example of Whitaker Chambers, who went through a cold, incomparable experience and came out correctly. Do you find people distrusting you? Well, it just depends on who I'm talking to. People who, for instance, have undergone a spiritual conversion themselves readily understand what happened to me. But the people who have not had that kind of experience and don't believe that it's possible, they always accuse me of being up to something. First of all, they say I was trying to get my case. Now that my case is settled, they just say I'm running the game. And I think it just depends on who you're talking to. And sometimes it's incredible when people look at what happened to me and I'm surprised myself, frankly, at what happened to me, because I didn't plan it. And I never thought it was possible. But I'm glad that such things are possible. Looking back at the civil rights movement that you went through, you were talking earlier about many of the young blacks distrusting Roy Wilkins, Martin Luther King, those sort of, I guess you could say mainstream black leaders. Would you still participate in civil rights movement, knowing what you know now? And secondly, would you be affiliated with one of those organizations, as opposed to the Black Panthers? Well, my attitude is an ecumenical one. I think that we have to deal with the problem as a whole. Whole. And not get sidetracked and compartmentalize the problem. And so the civil rights movement as it existed in the 60s, doesn't exist anymore. Someone has said that the civil rights movements of our time is politics. And so I'm quite happy to be able to meet such gentlemen as you just mentioned, and such organizations. And I've gotten invitations to speak at these organizations, and I met a lot of the different people, and there's a reconciliation there that I'm happy about, and I don't scorn them the way that I used to. Needless to say, we're out of time. In fact, way past time. I'd like to thank Dr. Skousen. Mr. Cleaver, thank you for being with us. And once again this evening, you'll be. You'll be both speaking as part of the Freeman Institute program. Dixie High School, 7 o'. Clock. That's right. And I listened to Eldridge Cleaver last night in. In a talk that he gave up in Logan. And there isn't a message like this in the United States today. I hope people will attend and hear it because it. And bring the whole family because it's understandable and it can leave its impact and teach us lessons that even a couple of semesters in political science doesn't always teach us. Dr. Skousen, Mr. Cleaver, thank you for being with us today. And a reminder that Opinion Please will be on again tomorrow at 10:05 when Charlie wantless will be back with us and we'll have another fine guest and we invite you to call in then. That's Opinion Please for today. Steve says. Kirkland Sandy Acres Nursery has everything for happy gardening besides lawn and garden seed. Here are some great gardening specials. Shovels are $5.95 and bow rakes are $5.95 too. Hand tools are $1.49. Pruners, looping shears, gloves, garden hoes, sprayers, sprinklers. Why you name it. If it's for the lawn and garden, Sandy Acres has it. Keep listening or see your newspaper for the unusual special on a lawn mower this week. Sandy Acres Nursery, 400 north, just east of Bluff. 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